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Chris Sherbak
.:::. .::...:..
Chris Sherbak [userpic]
Too subtle?

"I just don't understand all the controversy - I think we should just accept the artist's depiction and enjoy what's been wrought.

Having an "Earth Mother" image with an erect phallus is a brilliant post modern interpretation of gender expression and identity and giving Hecate, as Gatekeeper, semi-prominent breasts is not altogether in my conception of Her, but I can certainly work with that image as a faithful representation of Her to that artist." 

Current Location: United States, ,
Current Mood: quixoticquixotic

if somebody has those and would donate them i would love to have them. I understand the concern i don't understand the pure venom and hate that spills out over something as silly as this. I just think that adults and leaders should be able to discuss things without so much hate. Really if it wasn't this there would be something else to spark some people. Some sit in the corner coiled and waiting for any opportunity to strike, that is what concerns me...
I'm not saying you)
also why must we take everything to the wall. If you hit everything with a hammer, then everything becomes a nail...hugs

Yup. Too subtle.

Seamus, I lubs you dearly but ...

This is my satirical/ironic reaction to all the hububb. People seem to be unable (unwilling?) to admit that there might be alternative reactions to the idols, notwithstanding the (apparent) dismissal of such concerns.

My Jesuit teachers would often offer up thought experiments to get us to think thru things. This is a (heavily) veiled version of that. If there are people that don't see the fairly obvious potential duotheistic interpretation of the idols, perhaps if I suggest an altogether radical (and even conceivable) interpretation it might open some eyes.

Then again, maybe not. Thanks for taking the time to read and react.

p.s. we still need to chat about Wellspring (and afters). Your post caused quite a reaction as we read it on the way home.

I don't disagree with some of the comments made - I disagree with how they were made and how it was handled or mishandled by many involved.
Just remember asking people to think doesn't mean they will agree...I thought some great points were brought up and I think the honest answer just should have been "ah yeah, we didn't think of that, we were just excited about being given a wonderful gift...and reacted off the cuff, there is nothing more to it than that, let's take some time to think about it and we can revisit the shrines after we have all thought about it...but then again that's just me :)

Yes, sadly

there's a lot of ego attached to the decision and (I believe) a deep understanding that it wasn't handled in the best way. But rather than accepting "oh, oops, that could have been better" people fall back on being defensive.

I"m pretty sure it'll be a touchy subject for quite some time. For me, the Nemeton I remember and cherish has become just a fond memory. We'll see if I can build new memories with this new one.

The idols themselves have never worked for me, and this includes the old ones who used to be there, so I really didn't have a log in the fire. My gatekeeper is almost always a Goddess or a Dog so the old idol didn't do much for me anyways. Had I been asked I would have asked for something different. Had they chosen to go with what they chose in the end, well, at least I would have felt better that I had been asked.

I think what bothered me is that when people brought it up it was the same reaction every time people bring up something controversial. The online equivalent to rolling one's eyes and telling them to just shut up. I have been the recipient of that kind of behavior before when I have asked about clergy or other various issues/concerns I may have had.

I guess ... what I have a hard time understanding is why, when the most common reaction is dismissal of one's concerns, ideas, issues, etc. why they wouldn't expect anger in return? It gets old when you say "hey, can anyone explain *this( to me?" and the response is "everyone loved them, if you have a problem it's your problem" or "that's the way Isaac wanted it" or "warriors are supposed to be rude and blunt" or "new people don't have any business bring up concerns anyways".

Maybe it wasn't/isn't meant to be dismissal but it FEELS like it. I am not the type to feel like everyone needs to be happy and pleased at all times but people should, imo, feel empowered to bring up concerns and have leadership take them seriously.

I have some pretty glaring issues with ADF structure and polity, not the least of which are a hired treasurer and a shared spiritual leader and executive, but I am literally afraid to bring them up because of the reactions I have received in the past.

As you can imagine...

this has been the subject of some debate here at the Onions.

The best I can come up with to explain the reaction is that people realize they made a mistake and are backpedalling as fast as possible to get past it. Why they just don't say "mistakes were made" just points to issues of low self esteem and fear of being seen as imperfect.

Also, there's a lot of very myopic and blindered thinking. Thinking outside the box is not valued in ADF (IMO) and the social pressure to "go along to get along" is very strong. I've succumbed to it on many (most!?) occasions as "not worth the effort this time." But as Jack pointed out yesterday, that just enables people: "well, no one disagreed so there >>must<< not be anyone who thinks other than me. See! Consensus works!!"

I think at some point not encouraging critical thinking will hold us back. But (clearly) it can take us quite a ways.

As to the older idols - they had a certain primitive charm which allowed me to bypass their original, sexual form. (Anyway, that knob might have been a clitoris, neh?) Bryon's Nemeton had a very primitive look, with the shafts, wickerworks and styrofoam faces in the trees that I will always cherish. Styles and tastes change I suppose.

subtle but satirical...

well I certainly didn't get any further responses from anyone after I explained in detail what my problem was with the whole thread(it very quickly stopped being about the idols)

Seamus I thought some of your comments were in fact some of the worst. Sarcasm has it's place but that was not it. And I don't think we take everything to the wall, when was the last time the list blew up about anything? Sometimes things happen and we have to deal with them, life's hard get a helmet. Trust me if the Onions brought up everything that bothered us on the leadership list, Drum would probably have an aneurysm... ;)

Edited at 2012-06-16 05:57 pm (UTC)